Trump administration

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Re: Trump administration

Postby jcjm » Sun May 21, 2017 3:53 pm

I'm not a Trump fan and I'm not defending him but I take exception to the following

We don't understand why it is OK to:


be a bigot
1st amendment, the pursuit of happiness to name a few

take away rights
not sure what rights he has taken away

suppress the media
taking to twitter instead of granting interviews isn't suppression, the media is just mad that he is going around them

take away agencies
agencies come and go, not having 13 groups doing the job that 6 could do more effectively is called consolidation, common in business, not with politicians

tell the Russians classified information and then brag about it as his right
from what I see they were discussing the information that the press had already reported on and trying to find common ground to keep computer bombs from being put on passenger airlines. If he did declassify anything it is his prerogative as PRESIDENT, something Hillary did without having the authority

you all got so upset about Hillary's emails, yet this treason is OK
I'm not upset about either and the Special Prosecutor will decide what it is.


Alot of liberals, me included, are OK with Hillary losing. The right wingers like to paint us as "sore losers" that is why we want Trump gone. That is the kind of excuse Trump uses everytime he is called on his behavior. Everytime the press confronts him with his own words, his own video statements, it is always the same. It is all because we "lost." What a load of crap and you know that. You just don't have a justification for Trump and you just don't want to admit you were tricked.


The facts are

Hillary lost--Trump won
Obama didn't get his Supreme Court nominee in--Trump did
The stock market was stagnant under Obama--its flourishing under Trump
Obamacare was failing--Trump is trying to redo it and keep some vital parts
Company's were leaving the US under Obama--Trump is giving them incentives to stay or come back

Trump may do some stupid, outlandish and even despicable things, but I don't see what's wrong with 9 people on the Supreme Court, a vibrant economy, job growth and trying to make healthcare better.
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Re: Trump administration

Postby Tituba » Sun May 21, 2017 4:09 pm

And....of course....Obama gets NO credit for the stock market.

In his eight years, the S&P 500 index had risen to 2,274 points after one of the great bull runs in stock market history. With Obama as president, the U.S. stock market, as measured by the S&P 500, returned 235%, or 16.4% annualized.

Ah, but this doesn't fit the narrative.

How exactly are you defending Trump enabling the mentally ill to now get guns? So whatever Hillary was accused of got people chanting "lock her up" yet, Trump gets a pass? I wonder how much corruption will have to occur before his supporters finally have to admit they've been scammed?
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Re: Trump administration

Postby jcjm » Sun May 21, 2017 5:26 pm

I'm just going on what the business networks and places like Fidelity show as returns.

The funds and indexes I've been watching have gone up more since Trump was elected than over the last 2 years Obama was in office. Sure Obama had a big bump at the beginning, but that was only a rebound from the dip it took in the 1st year. Sectors like biotech did good, but overall performance was not great. He keep the interest rates low on bank deposits and CDs so he wouldn't have to pay interest on the deficit hurting seniors who need income from them. If you don't see a better economy now than 6 months ago, I'm not sure what you are looking at.

I'm not sure how Trump is giving guns to the mentally ill. All I saw was that he wasn't taking guns away from veterans who had PTSD, which speaking of taking rights away, would be to deny them their 2nd amendment rights. So he was doing the exact opposite of what you said about taking rights away, but not allowing veterans right to be taken away.

He has plenty of faults but I don't think these 2 are faults. He reminds me of Napoleon with his arrogance and I wake up every morning, turn on the news to see if Korea set off another rocket, but the economy, 1st and 2nd amendments aren't the things that scare me.

To me Trump leaving and Pence taking over would be worse. If Pence were in now we would have Pencecare (far worse than Trumpcare), a tax cut for the rich and a bunch of other things Trump hasn't pushed through. To me Pence is a nicer guy, but Trump is more middle of the road and the sooner the Dems realize that, the faster we can get some middle of the road bi-partisan stuff passed. My concern with Trump is the rockets not that he is an old school good old boy who's not politically correct and thinks that he can operate the way they did 30 years ago. Koreas dictator and Trump are 2 hard headed ####'s (fill in the blank) who could cause great damage because of their Napoleon like egos.

Remember, getting rid of Trump isn't going to put Hillary in office, it is going to put Pence in office.
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Re: Trump administration

Postby Tituba » Mon May 22, 2017 2:49 am

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Re: Trump administration

Postby jcjm » Fri May 26, 2017 12:42 pm

I don't get it.

You said Trump is taking away rights yet you want to take away 2nd amendment rights from people, where Trump is restoring them. Is it taking away rights you don't like or just the rights you favor?

As far as mental health and guns, I don't own a gun but I did work at a hospital for over 10 years.

From what I have seen first hand, it isn't the gun, its the person. People use whatever they can to do harm and there are already laws that allow people to be committed involuntarily if they are deemed a risk to themselves or others.

Taking guns away from many to prevent the few from using them wrong isn't right and won't work, they will just use something else if not treated. Meanwhile the 99.9% who aren't going to abuse this right, have been violated.

*********************************************************************************

Trump isn't doing much to redeem himself this week, but I still have to ask, is having Pence take his place and be able to get a more Conservative agenda forwarded and laws passed, a better alternative?

As a liberal what would you rather have:

Trump--Crazy and ineffective middle of the roader or Pence--Sane and effective ultra conservative
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Re: Trump administration

Postby Tituba » Fri May 26, 2017 7:57 pm

I'd rather have sane Pence over a mentally unstable child who is going to damage our relationships and the world.

The second amendment reads: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

A well regulated Militia. Not everybody can have guns. Yes, I'd like to see there be no guns. However, I'll never understand how anyone can support assault weapons and the insane being allowed.

Whenever the press reports something negative about Trump, his supporters start chiming "fake news." Trump has programmed people to distrust the press. This is right out of the dictator playbook. Several people have been arrested for asking questions. Trump is systematically trying to squelch freedom of speech and assembly thru fear of being arrested and/or physically attacked.

Good article about "fake news"
https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/b ... -fake-news

I find it disturbing that people are now giving him a pass at his collusion with Russia, his non-secure meetings at his Florida property, his using his position to further his business interests, the executive orders that hurt animals, the environment and poor people. Same people who chanted "lock her up" for an email server. The only press they believe is Fox, which has been shown to be the Republican propaganda tool. As long as the stock market goes up, supporters seem to think he is doing a good job. Ignoring the very real and present danger this unstable leader.

What I hope happens is not only is he impeached, but goes to prison for treason.

You and I will never agree.
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Re: Trump administration

Postby jcjm » Tue May 30, 2017 9:32 am

You and I will never agree.


Not really. We both agree Trump is a nightmare. You just have a longer list of reasons why.

I don't agree with everything on your list being a problem and I think some of the things on there are because of stupidity and inflated sense of ego, not malice or treason. He's a real capitalist and his perception of things is always tainted by the bottom line. This helps in some things and hurts in others.

I don't agree with your perception of fake news, to me it is CNN and the like that are spewing the propaganda, that is why I don't watch the networks much. I watch the actual clips (not the sound bites). Reporting the truth isn't enough, you have to report the whole truth and this means seeing enough of a clip to know its context. Most of the networks just play the part that gets people riled up. I've seen so many sound bites that are negated when you see the whole thing and take it into context.

I don't own a gun but taking guns away was also one of the first steps of the Nazis, Fidel Castro, the Russians and the Southern Democrats after the
Civil War. If normal people don't have guns they are beholding to those that do and at their mercy. Consequently regular people are a militia to me.

So the fake news and gun control both look like the real things out of the "Dictator Handbook" to me.

But hat doesn't mean I think Trump is right, a great guy or unbiased. I think he is an egomaniac who's ego will be his downfall. if it isn't it will be what makes him change course.
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Re: Trump administration

Postby jcjm » Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:50 pm

A lot of build up to Comey's testifying, but not much substance. If there were, the news media would be covering it more. Only 5 minutes on Friday's evening news committed to this, opposed to 10-15 the day before. And what did he say, that Trump wasn't being investigated for collusion.

Of course the things Comey did verify that Trump was right on can't be covered, so there wasn't much to cover.

I want the truth and justice as much as anyone, but spending tax money to go on a witch hunt is wrong, whether it is Hillary or Trump. Find something wrong and pursue it. but don't just say there has to be something wrong because Hillary couldn't of lost fair and square, is the wrong thing to do.
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Re: Trump administration

Postby Scenario Thinker » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:28 am

I'm not going to debate everyone point by point, but I have a few things since I've been studying the economic situation in the last many months since before the election.

We supposedly live in a democracy with a free market economy, which is totally not true. Elections are bought, or corrupted by the highest bidder. If it were a true democracy, we would have many more choices (parties) for our leaders, and we would all have a say (vote) in the major bills that try to go through. We would also have democracy in the workplace, which as we know is totally false. But, the constitution was in fact not a structure that was really meant for "democracy". The free market is a laugh. There are more government welfare subsidies going to the top wealth holders and corporations than the poor will ever dream of getting (and that the right wing keeps bitching about). Regulations and markets are structured so that the rich benefit. I've heard it said that the top lives in a socialist country, and the bottom struggles in a real market economy.

All political and economic efforts in recent history since FDR put in new deal social programs (which by the way saved capitalism) have been chipped away at by the conservatives and the ruling (rich) class. The objective is continuing high profits the farther you are up the chain, and social inequality, jobs, and healthcare are inconsequential to them.

The stock market is a casino and the reason why everyone stays in it, is they just can't get out and risk losing returns. So the race is who will be the last suckers that pull out and loose their shirts and livelihoods, while the very top will be ok, because they will reap huge profits (the wealthy own the vast majority of the stock equities and bonds, even though we think we're doing good with our piddling 401(k)'s or whatever). If they run into trouble, they will be bailed out, so no real need to worry.

As a society, we COULD as a whole decide to allocate the continuing huge corporate profits, much of because of automation, to the population in general and let everyone at least live an economically survivable life. Sure, whether it's by meritocracy or whatever economic system we have where there will be some who take in more of the pie than others, but it doesn't have to be this drastic.

We continue to institute slavery and slave labor by the ever-growing prison population and corporate-owned prisons, where it's easier to charge (mostly minorities) people for increasingly petty crimes in order to secure labor instead of actually dealing with the poverty problem in the urban and inner city populations. The huge inequality we have is the main reason for the high crime rates we've enjoyed.

Since now 5 men (4 in the US) now own almost half the wealth of the world, it has reached crisis proportions. The climate is heating up, the thread of nuclear annihilation is ever more. We continue to force our hegemony to other countries to overturn regimes and secure access to natural resources. The corporate military continues to make huge profits producing weapons and machines for war.

Meanwhile we in the US bicker about this and that, which is just a distraction to the real issue(s). The major media (which is corporate-owned) slants their views so most Americans don't know the real issues. They just want us to shop and buy, keeping money funneling to the top, with and ever-increasing rent extraction (all the "toll booths" from privatizing our land and infrastructures) and financial wizardry that magically puts more money into the higher and higher income and wealth percentiles.
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Re: Trump administration

Postby jcjm » Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:43 pm

I agree with a lot of what you say, so I am only going to list some of the things I take issue with.

We supposedly live in a democracy with a free market economy, which is totally not true. Elections are bought, or corrupted by the highest bidder. If it were a true democracy, we would have many more choices (parties) for our leaders, and we would all have a say (vote) in the major bills that try to go through........ We would also have democracy in the workplace, which as we know is totally false.


We live in a Representative Democracy where we choose the leaders and they make the decisions. Our only vote is for who that is, in most cases. We only have 2 parties because that is more along the line of majority rules. If we had more choices then someone with only 15% of the vote could end up ruling. Look at how Ross Perot affected the election he was in. Or how Hitler took power as part of a 3 way race.

I'm not sure where democracy in the workplace fits in, the owner is in complete control and has nothing to do with politics, he is a dictator with pretty much full rule.

The stock market is a casino and the reason why everyone stays in it, is they just can't get out and risk losing returns. So the race is who will be the last suckers that pull out and loose their shirts and livelihoods, while the very top will be ok, because they will reap huge profits (the wealthy own the vast majority of the stock equities and bonds, even though we think we're doing good with our piddling 401(k)'s or whatever). If they run into trouble, they will be bailed out, so no real need to worry.


A lot of people feel this way, but no one makes you participate in the stock market. It can be a ponzy scheme when the market dips, but there are daily circuit breakers now and you can buy inverse ETF's when it does fall. So things are better, but its a long term game and anything can happen in the short run.

We continue to institute slavery and slave labor by the ever-growing prison population and corporate-owned prisons, where it's easier to charge (mostly minorities) people for increasingly petty crimes in order to secure labor instead of actually dealing with the poverty problem in the urban and inner city populations. The huge inequality we have is the main reason for the high crime rates we've enjoyed.


I probably saw the same movies and documentaries as you did on this. My only disagreement is on degree. There are some people who intend for things to happen, some who go along and some who are just clueless and follow the trend because it works for them. I don't think all who support this new slavery have the same take on it or in some cases even are aware of it.


Meanwhile we in the US bicker about this and that, which is just a distraction to the real issue(s). The major media (which is corporate-owned) slants their views so most Americans don't know the real issues. They just want us to shop and buy, keeping money funneling to the top, with and ever-increasing rent extraction (all the "toll booths" from privatizing our land and infrastructures) and financial wizardry that magically puts more money into the higher and higher income and wealth percentiles.


My take here is that the millennials are so self absorbed that they are easy targets for the marketers so things are worse than they have ever been. In a lot of cases their parents tried to give them what they didn't have and we just ended up with a generation of spoiled rich kids, who take from their parents an have no sense of responsibility. When they become the majority we are screwed. What happens when we have the majority of people paying for cell phones and internet first and stiffing everyone else? A collapsed economy. At this time I am glad I am not 15 or 20 or even 30. With the worse yet to come, I probably won't be around for as much as they are.

Since now 5 men (4 in the US) now own almost half the wealth of the world, it has reached crisis proportions. The climate is heating up, the thread of nuclear annihilation is ever more. We continue to force our hegemony to other countries to overturn regimes and secure access to natural resources. The corporate military continues to make huge profits producing weapons and machines for war.


Wealth is not the only thing in the world although it is probably the biggest class modifier. People also get high on POWER, FAME, EDUACATION, and other things. So while money is the most common class structure its closely followed by people who seek power, or those who seek fame, or those who think everyone is an idiot because they don't have a PhD, or those who think they are God because they are an MD. People choose to put down others they feel are not as good as themselves because of ...fill in the blank. Even the millennials think they know everything because they have a tattoo or the latest phone. It been common throughout history, people trying to be superior because of their talent or ability. In the end money, a PhD, Fame, or power can't do much if their is a nuclear war. The MD might help if you live long enough to use it.
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Re: Trump administration

Postby Scenario Thinker » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:03 am

Well, we basically live in a one dollar-one vote society. The super rich can control elections (and fight with each other), to see who gets elected of the lesser of two evils (for us). Many of the intellectuals and analysts I read or watch videos on believe if the DNC wouldn't have forced Sanders out (and the corporate media had not ignored him until they couldn't any more), he would have beat Trump and represented the American people much better than either Trump or Clinton. But, the elites would have none of that. The fact that he made such an impact and that Trump actually won, shows the vast majority of Americans are pissed off at their plight, and want someone to represent them, not the corporate interests and rich. Unfortunately, of course, Trump fed the electorate a line of lies (where Clinton did not), that he would help their situation, so he won (on a technicality of course, the electoral college). And who's to say for sure how that was rigged with re-districting.

I understand that third parties can allow a "bad" party to win. I didn't even like how France's election went, it was too either/or. I like the idea that all interests are represented in like a congress or a parliment, and the votes on each bill would have all parties involved. I'm not sure that would create even more of a deadlock or not. Ideally, I guess, all Americans could vote on major issues, but there'd have to be a more efficient voting system (and that allowed ALL to vote).

I don't watch documentaries per se, but I learned about the prison systems via online news and personality sources. In fact, that's mainly where I'm learning all this in general in trying to learn economics (not just the kind they teach you in school, which is market capitalism). When I say personalities, I mean intellectuals and journalists who try to dig into the truth or find out what the real motivations of big decisions are, NOT any major network "journalists" or cable stations. They both know about the major events that happen, but I'm talking the behind the scenes motivations. And most of these people are liberal or left wing if you like (NOT Democrats!), but to me, they represent kindness and equity to most humans, which to me is more democratic than the opposite.

But, anyhow, here's a list that I try to dig up videos and articles on:
Noam Chompsky - humanitarian/activist/linguist
Peter Joseph (Zeitgeist movement)
Sam Harris - neuroscientist/philosopher

Journalists:
Chris Hedges - and activist
Greg Palast
Caitlin Johnstone - and blogger
Max Keiser/Stacy Herbert - economic/political/financial commentators
Jimmy Dore - comedian

Economists:
Richard D Wolff
Michael Hudson
Steve Keen
Mark Blyth
Tim Taylor
Dean Baker
David Graeber - also anthropologist and anarchist
Ha-Joon Chang
Richard Koo
Thomas Piketty
and of course ...
Adam Smith, Karl Marx, John Maynard Keynes

Most of these people, if not all, believe capitalism will eventually fail one way or another.

Some of the news site I read or watch videos from are:
The Real News Network
Truthout
Democracy Now!
Truthdig

there are more, but honestly I don't try and look at them all, all the time, too many.


As far as democracy in the workplace, Richard D Wolff is a big proponent. Worker co-ops, where the employees own, run and make all the major decisions that now only the upper management and the board of directors makes in major corporations now. These have already been happening in places like Spain, Italy and the UK. They usually are more community-centered (uhh, they might even call that community run or communism. Like David Graeber says, in the end, communism is the only thing that works anyhow*). So, the decisions that the company makes are more in the interests of the people who work there and the surrounding communities. In other words, they might not vote to outsource jobs to China, pollute the water in the area, give huge profits to the CEO while the average worker has to borrow to send their kids to college, etc.

We are still the richest country in the world, and there's no reason as a society we couldn't decide spread that wealth to give every American a chance at a decent life. It doesn't all have to be equal, but at least a living income and a chance to improve based on their merits. Instead, all the profits are funneled to the top, creating an ever more unequal society.




* NOT the communism that the USSR and China put into practice, and that the USA government drilled into Americans that it was the root of all evil. We're talking "community" where people cooperate and help each other, and market exchange and profit are not the major motivators.
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Re: Trump administration

Postby jcjm » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:22 am

I totally disagree with your first paragraph.

While money is a factor and redistricting is also a factor, Trump is in because of bad politicking by Hillary. She is just like so many of her voters, can't understand why people don't see things her way because she knows better than the average Joe what they need. The average Joe said no you don't and I can't believe you even mention the popular vote. Its like saying we won the world series, we had more hits even though you had more runs. If you are going to play the game, you can't change the rules after you lose.

Bernie is a good guy and should have had the nomination, but that's all the more reason why Hillary lost. Some of the Dems knew she cheated him out of the nomination and didn't come out to vote for her, for just that reason. They would rather have Trump that a scoundrel like Hillary. If you want to look at dirty tricks in the election, that should be #1 Bernie's stolen nomination.

The rest sounds kind of Utopian

Sounds good and I trust you from previous posts that you're sincere, but I am more realistic. From your posts and the references it seems like the view of a atheist Communist or at least a agnostic Socialist. Which sounds good on paper but in practicality just replaces wealth with political power. So you just have a bunch of power politicians replacing money politicians. The end result is at least as bad if not worse.

When it comes to Utopian thinking I am reminded by the words of a Frenchman when asked why Germany overtook France in a month during WWII. He said, WWI was the war to end all wars so afterward we took to art and dance while the German's took to boxing and fencing. When they came, we were no match.

When I hear people talking about gun control, socialist ideals and doing what is right, I hear them going down the path of the French. When an adversary like the German's comes along again, they will be no match and will be lambs to the slaughter.

I can see it now an Army of "participation trophy" soldiers against an Army of gun toting fighting soldiers. Who do you think will win?

It reminds me of the scene in Indiana Jones where the giant sword is no match for a revolver.
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Re: Trump administration

Postby jcjm » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:22 am

I totally disagree with your first paragraph.

While money is a factor and redistricting is also a factor, Trump is in because of bad politicking by Hillary. She is just like so many of her voters, she can't understand why people don't see things her way because she knows better than the average Joe what they need. The average Joe said no you don't.

I can't believe you even mention the popular vote. Its like saying we won the world series, we had more hits even though you had more runs. If you are going to play the game, you can't change the rules after you lose.

Bernie is a good guy and should have had the nomination, but that's all the more reason why Hillary lost. Some of the Dems knew she cheated him out of the nomination and didn't come out to vote for her, for just that reason. They would rather have Trump that a scoundrel like Hillary. If you want to look at dirty tricks in the election, that should be #1 Bernie's stolen nomination.

The rest sounds kind of Utopian

Sounds good and I trust you from previous posts that you're sincere, but I am more realistic. From your posts and the references it seems like the view of a atheist Communist or at least a agnostic Socialist. Which sounds good on paper but in practicality just replaces wealth with political power. So you just have a bunch of power politicians replacing money politicians. The end result is at least as bad if not worse.

When it comes to Utopian thinking I am reminded by the words of a Frenchman when asked why Germany overtook France in a month during WWII. He said, WWI was the war to end all wars so afterward we took to art and dance while the German's took to boxing and fencing. When they came, we were no match.

When I hear people talking about gun control, socialist ideals and doing what is right, I hear them going down the path of the French. When an adversary like the German's comes along again, they will be no match and will be lambs to the slaughter.

I can see it now an Army of "participation trophy" soldiers against an Army of gun toting fighting soldiers. Who do you think will win?

It reminds me of the scene in Indiana Jones where the giant sword is no match for a revolver.
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Re: Trump administration

Postby Scenario Thinker » Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:36 pm

I'm not writing all this to get your agreement. I thought people might like to know this stuff, but I know the boards aren't like they used to be.
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Re: Trump administration

Postby jcjm » Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:41 pm

I'm not writing all this to get your agreement. I thought people might like to know this stuff, but I know the boards aren't like they used to be.


My reason for writing as well, although we may be the only 2 reading this.
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