Health care and what do we do?

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Re: Health care and what do we do?

Postby DJCNOR » Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:09 pm

There's a very obvious answer to that which involves where the US gets its operating money, but I swore I would not debate further with you, jcjm.
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Re: Health care and what do we do?

Postby merk » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:52 pm

insurance companies can and do drop people when they need it most. In fact, for people who incur major medical expenses, the insurance companies drop HALF of them. The insurance company works for profit. When i file a claim, they lose profit. It's in their own interest to pay as little to me as possible. A govt run system has no greed motive. Also, other countries manage to have socialized medical care and pay for it. makes no sense at all that we, the richest country in the world, couldn't afford to do it as well. From my point of view, your opinion doesn't make any sense. You'd prefer a private company that has a 50/50 chance of dropping you when you need it most, versus a govt system that has no profit motive and so would have no motive to drop you. But you're entitled to your opinion.
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Re: Health care and what do we do?

Postby Unique Journalist » Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:13 pm

I'm curious about something... Maybe I'm naive about the way insurance is supposed to work (car, home, medical, etc.). But isn't the point of insurance to protect you when you NEED IT? We pay for insurance as a buffer against catastrophic expenses. But the health insurance companies...drop people at that point. Please tell me how this makes sense, apart from the obvious profit motives. :?: :?
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Re: Health care and what do we do?

Postby Scenario Thinker » Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:27 pm

Unique Journalist wrote:But isn't the point of insurance to protect you when you NEED IT? We pay for insurance as a buffer against catastrophic expenses. But the health insurance companies...drop people at that point. Please tell me how this makes sense, apart from the obvious profit motives. :?: :?
Well, it still has to do with the profit motive. Once a claim is made, it goes to underwriting and they draw the line as to what "catastrophic" really is. Let's face it, there's only so much money coming in as insurance premiums and they have to restrict what goes out to a certain point, or they won't make money. It's a business. Anyone would have to do the same thing selling widgets. The thing with insurance is, it is based on unknown probabilities of what will happen. That's where insurance actuaries come in. They're not the be all end all of what happens, and they're only human (and no one can really predict the future), but they along with all the other decision makers in the insurance industry with many years of experience, come up with how the money comes in and how it goes out. I agree, you'd think our "catastrophes" would be obvious and be the same to the insurance companies, but they're not. The thing I don't like is the pre-existing conditions that cause people to get dropped or never even get coverage. I guess they've found the risk is just too great to insure someone who went to a shrink once, for example :).
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Re: Health care and what do we do?

Postby Unique Journalist » Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:30 pm

...or treated a yeast infection on their own.
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Re: Health care and what do we do?

Postby sallypz » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:56 am

Did someone say that they object to the government forcing us to buy a specific product? (I agree) but...NewsFlash...they've already done this. Aren't you already legally required to buy car insurance? Now I have nothing against the idea of car insurance (except that they too drop you or give you problems once you make a claim) However, I do have a whole lot against the government forcing me to buy a specific product (car insurance). As for Health Care...I am for everyone having Health Care...similar to France's system would be nice...and despite what people falsely say about France...their system is not Socialized Medicine...and people do not wait in lines. I don't know the particulars of this bill...but I do know people who have been denied Health Insurance because of 'pre-existing' causes. An example is a young man ( age 20-something) born with insulin-dependent diabetes...he has been repeatedly been denied Health Insurance....as a result of that pre-existing cause he has also been denied jobs when the employer finds out that problems with insuring him. We do already have a variety of measures in use in the medical field, that although not called 'death panels', I believe do qualify as death panels. An article in a medical research journal I just read for a graduate research class was all about making Medical personnel in ICU's use a computer system's software program that predicts the probability of mortality (the politically correct word for death) of each specific patient that is admitted into the ICU. The article specifically states the aim of predicting whether the patient has a high probability of death or not is to decide whether or not the particular patient should receive care measures or not. Now called cost-containment measures. The language is soft, non offensive, and politically correct, but it still is A candy-coated computer driven software program death panel. Since the article was published in a well read , popular medical research journal, the theory behind it is becoming more accepted. However, with more careful scrutiny. the reader can discern that the research project was paid for by the company that produces (and is trying to sell) the software package, and that the author is affilated with the company. I wonder if the future plans for this software program is--that after much research and success in cost-containment in ICU's that the software package will soon be marketed to non-ICU situations in the name of cost-containment. Hmmm, it did read more than a little bit like a software package that could easily be adapted to gambling...maybe they could make a version for LasVegas. A big part of what was suppose to help fund government health care was revoking the 'not-for-profit' (not for profit means that they are charitable organizations---like charities)status of hospitals and taxing them like the businesses they have turned into in the past 20 or so years. We certainly have a health care mess and will continue to for many years to come. Although I do not agree with much of what he/she said, I wholly agree with the statement someone previously said "There isn't any incentive to do the right thing here." sallypz (MoxieMe)
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Re: Health care and what do we do?

Postby jcjm » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:46 am

Did someone say that they object to the government forcing us to buy a specific product? (I agree) but...NewsFlash...they've already done this. Aren't you already legally required to buy car insurance? Now I have nothing against the idea of car insurance (except that they too drop you or give you problems once you make a claim) However, I do have a whole lot against the government forcing me to buy a specific product (car insurance).
Initially, I agreed with you, but delving a little deeper, there is a difference. Not everyone drives, not every state requires insurance, and in most cases you can get around it by posting a bond. The reason? Auto insurance is not required to drive, it is required to register a vehicle, which drives on roads that are maintained by the state. So, as long as you don't own a vehicle or don't drive on state roads, you don't need insurance. It is part of the vehicle licensing which is regulated by the STATE. Health insurance is a totally different thing. You don't need a license to live and everyone does it, there aren't any people who don't live like people who don't drive, and the regulation is FEDERAL not STATE. I don't like either, but I can see a better justification for auto insurance because you can cause injury to anothers property, which is not the case in health insurance.
A govt run system has no greed motive.
The govt has actuaries the same as insurance companies. How do you think they came up with a social security system that produced only 1 recipient for every 5 contributors. It was designed to take everyones money and give it back to the 20% who lived until 62. Any govt that was so devious as to sell retirement hope to people, when what they really were offering was a forced lottery of the survival of the fittest, could do anything including limit life saving measures to people who had beaten the acturarial tables and taken out more than they put in. This isn't the end, but the beginning. Some 30 states are going to sue over mandating insurance and if that doesn't stop this, it can be repealled when the next House is elected (like nursing home coverage for medicare recipients was 5 years ago).
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Re: Health care and what do we do?

Postby Nalina » Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:29 am

I am torn. I will read the specifics of the bill later, because it kept changing, so I wanted to read the final version. I am sure it is not the best from what I read so far. And yet I feel relieved that something was passed. Yes, despite all the deficiencies - at least it is a step in the right direction. I hope that later additional changes can be made to make it better. If nothing had been passed than I am not sure how long would we had waited again. On another note, lately I've been wondering what is wrong with this country when we oppose so many social programs that the rest of the developed countries have adopted and have much better protection and quality of life than we have. It seems that many people are just ignorant. When they hear the word "social" they think of "socialist", which is not the same. And so we continue suffering without universal health care, government guaranteed vacation and sick days, government subsidized child care, paid maternity leave, etc., etc. It is amazing because we are all hurting, yet blindly we continue down that road... Anyway, I think each of us should be more active politically to demand this of people who were selected to represent us.
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Re: Health care and what do we do?

Postby merk » Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:36 am

Nalina - i agree with you 100% that some people are ignorant. The perfect example is the people who were on medicaid/medicare standing up and demanding the govt stay out of healthcare when ever someone talked about socialized medicine. There are too many people in this country who think glen beck is source of wisdom.
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Re: Health care and what do we do?

Postby jcjm » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:07 pm

And so we continue suffering without universal health care, government guaranteed vacation and sick days, government subsidized child care, paid maternity leave, etc., etc. It is amazing because we are all hurting, yet blindly we continue down that road...
That is socialism not social. If you expect the govt to give you paid vacation and sick days, that is way beyond socialism and those great countries you refer to also have permanent unemployment in double digits. This country became great by doing things and making things, not by paying people for living there. Someone has to pay and if you try to do the robinhood thing, the rich will just pick up and move, leaving just the unemployed, retired and kids going to school, none of which pay enough taxes to support anything. Someone has to pay and the rich or businesses can just pick up and go somewhere else. I don't know where this thing will go, but right now I don't see any new good things coming my way. Sure they can't refuse coverage, eventually, but they can make you pay 3x the going rate to get covered. Who can afford that? And if the states (there are now 35) get the mandate for everyone to buy insurance thrown out, the whole bill will fall apart because that will take a large chunk of the funding away. Without that it will be like flood insurance, no one will buy until they need it, making it unsustainable without govt propping it up. And the govt is going broke already. Surely, if this thing were soooooo good, why would 35 of 50 states be fighting it? They can't all be republicans.
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Re: Health care and what do we do?

Postby Nalina » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:44 pm

Here is a link to an interesting website about a book "Europe's Promise" by Steven Hill http://www.europespromise.org/ It also has a link to 10 myths about Europe. I listened to his interview on NPR. It was very interesting. He makes the point that Europeans in well developed countries have overall a much higher standard of living and are getting much more for what they are paying. Even if only half of what he is arguing is true, I still think that we, in the US, have to wake up and realize that we can't continue to constantly be blind to the reality. We think we are innovative, but I am thinking that we are still in our adolescence, trying to rebel. Many "old" countries have figured it out, like wiser old people. I am not naive and realize that these countries have their problems too, so I am not idealistic. Yet, I cannot understand how every one of them (I think just with the exception of Australia) had figured a way to provide health care to all, not like us. I have friends who visited us from Germany. They were appalled by the state of our roads. Why? Well, in Germany, the government subsidizes many things and the infrastructure is in much better shape. Yesterday there was another story on NPR about how we are behind on fast broadband connection. One of the reasons - again, the government subsidizes investments to make it more profitable for private companies to provide fast internet. I don't think the government has to everything, but doing nothing is also not the choice.
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Re: Health care and what do we do?

Postby merk » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:09 pm

Funny, i think it's the opposite. I don't think we're the young rebel. I think we're the crotchety old fool who is set in his ways. I think a lot of people have the opinion that america is the best at everything and they refuse to accept any evidence that is contrary to that. Maybe 100 or 50 years ago it might have been closer to the truth that we're the best at everything. Lately though it seems like other countries are passing us and we're too wrapped up in our ego to accept that and figure out a way to change and become better - or heaven forbid - just copy someone else who's already got a better system.
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Re: Health care and what do we do?

Postby Unique Journalist » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:40 pm

There's something jcjm said, about how America became great by doing things and making things. That's an interesting point. (I might be opening a new can of worms here, oh boy). Why aren't we making a lot of things anymore? When did America stop? I've lost count of the number of things I've picked up that said "Made in China". I don't know, just a thought. One more thought: Republicans and conservatives aren't the only one not thrilled with the bill. Plenty of Libertarians don't like it either. And just today, a coworker of mine--who happens to support universal healthcare--is not real happy with the bill (he's the one who loaned me the Michael Moore movie).
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Re: Health care and what do we do?

Postby merk » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:07 pm

Unique Journalist wrote:There's something jcjm said, about how America became great by doing things and making things. That's an interesting point. (I might be opening a new can of worms here, oh boy). Why aren't we making a lot of things anymore? When did America stop? I've lost count of the number of things I've picked up that said "Made in China". I don't know, just a thought.
I think what jcjm meant was that we INVENTED things. There's a difference, to me, between coming up with the design and who actually assembles it. Although obviously you can argue part of the problem is outsourcing jobs to countries where the wages are cheaper. But i think the root of the problem is that we've become fat and lazy - and i dont mean that in the physical sense. I mean we did great things, and now we're just acting like those great things we did are still great and we're trying to live off of past glory. Now you have half the country that insists america is great and perfect, and when the other half of the country tries to point out any flaw, even with a way to fix it, they get labeled as un-american by them. Forty years ago we landed the first human being to stand on another world. That's BIG. Now the only big thing we seem to do is invade countries and bicker among ourselves.
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Re: Health care and what do we do?

Postby Unique Journalist » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:36 pm

merk wrote: I think what jcjm meant was that we INVENTED things. There's a difference, to me, between coming up with the design and who actually assembles it. Although obviously you can argue part of the problem is outsourcing jobs to countries where the wages are cheaper. But i think the root of the problem is that we've become fat and lazy - and i dont mean that in the physical sense. I mean we did great things, and now we're just acting like those great things we did are still great and we're trying to live off of past glory. Now you have half the country that insists america is great and perfect, and when the other half of the country tries to point out any flaw, even with a way to fix it, they get labeled as un-american by them. Forty years ago we landed the first human being to stand on another world. That's BIG. Now the only big thing we seem to do is invade countries and bicker among ourselves.
Okay now you're both making me think. If America was great once, why couldn't America become great again? (I'll have to think more on this.) I feel like Winnie the Pooh *patting his head and saying to himself 'think, think think'* Why aren't we pioneering and leading in innovation like we did once?
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