Using Wishcraft etc to Save Civilization

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Using Wishcraft etc to Save Civilization

Postby lkindr » Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:05 pm

- Hi Folks. Barbara suggested that I move this discussion here. - Let's TRY to save civilization. The economy appears to be about to crash worldwide and the Neocons [the real terrorists?] appear determined to spread the war to Iran and maybe beyond. Far-reaching restrictions on movement are likely to be imposed and martial law may be declared. - To help end war and all such abuses of power, we can help empower peace groups et al via wishcraft methods, sociocracy and NVC [nonviolent communication]. Sociocracy is a scientifically devised form of consent decision making, which is said to be the most effective, productive, efficient, empowering and enjoyable of any other method of decision making. For details, see http://www.freewebs.com/lin4 , http://www.cnvc.org & http://governancealive.com . - Wishcraft is great for planning, Sociocracy is ideal for group decision making and Nonviolent Communication is excellent for dealing with conflicts, emotional reactions etc.
Last edited by lkindr on Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby skannie » Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:34 pm

Did you get any response to this? If not, I think it might be better to start with a blog about your ideas, or a forum like this one. The phpbb software is free and is provided ready to install by some webhosting companies, or you can get it and install it yourself from here http://www.phpbb.com Or you could set up a more complex community website using other free open source software e.g. Joomla content management system with a Fireboard forum and maybe the Community Builder component too.
www.beyond-mountains.com
www.scannertribe.com
Scanner Tribe Group on Facebook
Scanner Tribe group on LinkedIn
Twitter - @scannertribe
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Re: Using Wishcraft etc to Save Civilization

Postby urbanpioneer » Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:54 pm

" The economy appears to be about to crash worldwide and the Neocons [the real terrorists?] appear determined to spread the war to Iran and maybe beyond. Far-reaching restrictions on movement are likely to be imposed and martial law may be declared and U.S. citizens may be widely imprisoned etc." What? Have you been smoking crack? [/quote]
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Re: Using Wishcraft etc to Save Civilization

Postby MollyL » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:58 am

Hi Lloyd, I liked your idea to try and save civilization with Wishcraft. And even though I saw that someone else was surprised at your description of our society, I totally agree with your views. Have you read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn? Anyway please keep me posted if you start up another chatroom. I guess you just have to keep trying. Molly
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Meade
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Re: Using Wishcraft etc to Save Civilization

Postby lkindr » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:23 pm

How about a RESPONSIBLE WORLD COOP? - Sorry I missed everyone's replies last month. I must not have had the notify-me setting turned on. Thanks for the bb info. I don't think I heard of a book called Ishmael. I'll try to check it out. - I want to be responsible and I want to encourage responsible people to cooperate with all other responsible people by way of responsible groups, because, if responsible people don't cooperate, irresponsible people gain control of communities and nations. Isn't that true? - I'm in the St. Louis area and thinking of having conferences for responsible groups. I'd like to help others do likewise in other areas. - Here's an announcement I'm thinking of distributing. What do you think? RWC CONFERENCE __Our local chapter of Responsible World Coop is planning a local conference for [date, time, place]. Can your organization provide one or more speakers for this conference? We invite speakers to speak for 5 to 10 minutes on one of these topics. TOPICS _How Should Responsible People Cooperate for the Common Good? _How Can We Increase Responsible Leadership and Decrease Irresponsible Leadership Locally, Nationally, or Globally? _How Can We Have Responsible Media, Education and Science? DISCUSSION AFTERWARD __At the end of the conference will be discussion of how conference attenders may cooperate responsibly. Can your church or organization provide a representative or reporter to participate in the discussion? - I think I'll also discuss this on another BSboard. GDay. Lloyd
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Re: Using Wishcraft etc to Save Civilization

Postby jcjm » Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:54 pm

urbanpioneer wrote:" The economy appears to be about to crash worldwide and the Neocons [the real terrorists?] appear determined to spread the war to Iran and maybe beyond. Far-reaching restrictions on movement are likely to be imposed and martial law may be declared and U.S. citizens may be widely imprisoned etc." What? Have you been smoking crack?
[/quote] I wouldn't go that far but the problem is that what one person sees as eutopia another see as the beginning of the end. Even when you can get people to agree on something, not everyone in that group will agree on other issues. If you have everybody agreeing on everything, its called a cult. So my suggestion would be to deal with issues. Get involved in the issues that are the most important to you and form a network of like minded individuals, who are also passionate about the same issues. What Napoleon Hill calls a Mastermind Group. Personally, I think that people who think the end is near, are spending too much time watching the news and are online too much. The reason I say that is because every decade there is some new threat and if you look 10 years later its something else. We had problems with oil in the 70s, then nothing in the 80s, 90s or first part of the 00s. Now people think the world is coming to an end because of $4 gas. In the 80s we were going to perish from an ice age, now people are saying the exact opossite that global warming is going to do us in. In 1916 it was a World War, in the 20s alcohol and al Capone were going to do us in, in the 30s it was a depression, and again in the 40s it was a World War. Every decade has its own problems and one generation forgets what the last one learned as in the case of 2 World Wars and 2 gasoline chrunches. So , what I am saying is every generation will have idiots screwing things up and other people fixing things up. Just make sure you aren't trying to fix something that either isn't broken or will fix itself. As Brian Tracy says THERE IS NOTHING WORSE THAN DOING A GOOD JOB AT SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T NEED TO BE DONE AT ALL
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Re: Using Wishcraft etc to Save Civilization

Postby MollyL » Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:33 pm

jcjm posted: THERE IS NOTHING WORSE THAN DOING A GOOD JOB AT SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T NEED TO BE DONE AT ALL I beg to differ with you on several points. I feel that your attitude is condescending and that you are in denial to say the least. I say this with no malice but would like to compare you to the musicians who played music on the Titanic even as it was sinking beneath the waves. The overwhelming evidence of the best scientists of our generation state that things are very bad and are going to get worse. I will be glad to furnish links to information if you like. I do not feel that this discussion is a "the sky is falling" kind of discussion. But rather a realist's concern at what the human race has done to our planet, whether they have meant to or not. I would suggest that you read "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn for more info regarding the concern some of us have for our race, culture and planet. For the animals, Molly
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Meade
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Re: Using Wishcraft etc to Save Civilization

Postby jcjm » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:17 am

MollyL wrote:jcjm posted: THERE IS NOTHING WORSE THAN DOING A GOOD JOB AT SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T NEED TO BE DONE AT ALL I beg to differ with you on several points. I feel that your attitude is condescending and that you are in denial to say the least. I say this with no malice but would like to compare you to the musicians who played music on the Titanic even as it was sinking beneath the waves. The overwhelming evidence of the best scientists of our generation state that things are very bad and are going to get worse. I will be glad to furnish links to information if you like. I do not feel that this discussion is a "the sky is falling" kind of discussion. But rather a realist's concern at what the human race has done to our planet, whether they have meant to or not. I would suggest that you read "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn for more info regarding the concern some of us have for our race, culture and planet. For the animals, Molly
If you are going to quote me, please use the whole quote. What I said was
So , what I am saying is every generation will have idiots screwing things up and other people fixing things up. Just make sure you aren't trying to fix something that either isn't broken or will fix itself. As Brian Tracy says THERE IS NOTHING WORSE THAN DOING A GOOD JOB AT SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T NEED TO BE DONE AT ALL
The point you left out was that some things either aren't broken or will fix themselves and a person would be wasting time trying to fix those things. I am not debating what those things are, just pointing out it would be a waste of time trying to fix them and detract from the things that do need change.
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Re: Using Wishcraft etc to Save Civilization

Postby MollyL » Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:56 am

But you did imply that global warming etc were things that might fix themselves, did you not? And what a waste of time it would be to work on them? You also suggested people work on projects that are the most important to them. Mine is saving the world from people that refuse to see that there is something terribly wrong and that we (humans) are responsible for it. So see? I AM working on something that needs to be fixed. I am trying to get people to at least see the bars of the cage that they live in. And to see the bill of goods Mother Culture (as opposed to Mother Nature) has sold to us. Again, I reccommend Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. An easy yet very interesting and possibly enlightening read. Molly
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Re: Using Wishcraft etc to Save Civilization

Postby jcjm » Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:45 am

MollyL wrote:But you did imply that global warming etc were things that might fix themselves, did you not? And what a waste of time it would be to work on them? You also suggested people work on projects that are the most important to them. Mine is saving the world from people that refuse to see that there is something terribly wrong and that we (humans) are responsible for it. So see? I AM working on something that needs to be fixed. I am trying to get people to at least see the bars of the cage that they live in. And to see the bill of goods Mother Culture (as opposed to Mother Nature) has sold to us. Again, I reccommend Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. An easy yet very interesting and possibly enlightening read. Molly
I think you are blinded by your enthuesiasm, because once again you are putting words in my mouth. I implied that anything, not just global warming, can fall into this category. I applaud your effort to enlighten people, but there is a fine line between enlightening people and forcing ideas on others (like the McCarthy era did). To me, any form of forced political correctness, crosses that line. At least here in the US. As far as the book? I hesitate to even look at it. Because of your use of partial quotes that I made (and not the entire quote) I would suspect this book does the same thing. Putting a period where there was originally comma or starting a quote half way through a sentence could change the entire premice of what was said.
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Re: Using Wishcraft etc to Save Civilization

Postby MollyL » Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:49 pm

"I think you are blinded by your enthuesiasm, because once again you are putting words in my mouth. I implied that anything, not just global warming, can fall into this category. I applaud your effort to enlighten people, but there is a fine line between enlightening people and forcing ideas on others (like the McCarthy era did). To me, any form of forced political correctness, crosses that line. At least here in the US. As far as the book? I hesitate to even look at it. Because of your use of partial quotes that I made (and not the entire quote) I would suspect this book does the same thing. Putting a period where there was originally comma or starting a quote half way through a sentence could change the entire premice of what was said." Ishmael is a book of fiction and starts out with a talking gorilla. There are no quotes out of context :D I am sorry if you feel I misquoted you by not using entire quotes. Sometimes I am in a hurry and try to be brief. I am also sorry if you feel I was putting words in your mouth. That wasn't my goal. So now it seems to me you are not so subtly comparing me to McCarthy because I have suggested that some of your statements might possibly be in error. I certainly don't feel like I am forcing ideas on anyone. How would that work? Somehow I make you sit in front of your computer and read my writing? Again I would suggest Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. Molly
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Re: Using Wishcraft etc to Save Civilization

Postby MollyL » Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:35 pm

PS. JCJM wrote: "So , what I am saying is every generation will have idiots screwing things up and other people fixing things up. Just make sure you aren't trying to fix something that either isn't broken or will fix itself. As Brian Tracy says THERE IS NOTHING WORSE THAN DOING A GOOD JOB AT SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T NEED TO BE DONE AT ALL" I DID use the entire quote that YOU quoted. I just didn't use the words you put before it. I would assume a quote stands by itself not with a preface by someone else. And yes there are many things worse than "DOING A GOOD JOB AT SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T NEED TO BE DONE AT ALL" Should I start a list? Babies dying of starvation, a planet destroyed by people because they were afraid they might have to do some hard work and find out it wasn't needed, I could go on forever. Why may I ask would someone come to the conclusion that there was nothing worse than wasting some time trying to stop a catastrophe from happening? So you wasted some time, so what? What if it had been real? This seems to be the Far Right's basic premise about anything environmental. This quote seems politically inspired to me. And since Brian Tracy is a member of the board of trustees for The Heritage Foundation, one of the world's most prominent conservative think tanks, I would again question your motives here. Peace, Molly
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Re: Using Wishcraft etc to Save Civilization

Postby DJCNOR » Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:38 pm

Ikinder, I pretty much agree with you, though I think the US is in for the worst of it due to it's tendency to willfully deny or ignore major problems until absolutely forced to do otherwise, then to refuse to learn from the experiences of those who recognized and took measures to deal with the problems on their own soil. I agree so much that I left the US three years ago and do not intend to return until attitudes change. I will be investigating the idea of sociocracy. Donna
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Re: Using Wishcraft etc to Save Civilization

Postby MollyL » Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:53 pm

Donna wrote I pretty much agree with you, though I think the US is in for the worst of it due to it's tendency to willfully deny or ignore major problems until absolutely forced to do otherwise, then to refuse to learn from the experiences of those who recognized and took measures to deal with the problems on their own soil. I agree so much that I left the US three years ago and do not intend to return until attitudes change. I will be investigating the idea of sociocracy. Hi Donna, You sound very interesting! I have threatened many times to leave the US but have always ended up staying. Please tell us how you came to live outside the US and how the social climate is where you are compared to here. With much admiration, Molly
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Re: Using Wishcraft etc to Save Civilization

Postby DJCNOR » Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:31 am

Hi, Molly, Well, first I got the chance to go to a scientific meeting on a Greek Island some 20 years ago and decided since the back and forth flights were paid, I'd take some extra time and explore some of the big European cities on my own. I discovered that I really liked really big cities. So I came home having decided I wanted to see if I could get a science job in one of those really big cities in Europe. In my search, I got offered a job in New York City and knew that it was a relatively cheap place to fly out of to Europe, not to mention being a really large city, so I took it. In New York, I met several Europeans friends who invited me to visit their home cities and found out about Air-Hitch (which has now been split and copied in several variations, not all so reputable) that filled the last empty seats of flights at a low cost. How it worked was that you specified three target European cities and a range of 5 days on which you were prepared to fly. They promised to get you to Europe sometime during those five days, period. You didn't know which day it would be or exactly where you'd be landing, but it was cheap. So that's how I took all my holidays. I'd always put a major hub like London or Amsterdam among my three city choices because I knew that once I got to one of those I could find cheap transport to some other cool places pretty cheaply. I stayed in cheap places and met more Euros, and always stayed in one place long enough to get to know the place, usually 2 to three weeks. Then a fellow scientist who had gotten a job in Denmark offered me the chance to spend three months there working with the same company. I shared a flat with a Portuguese woman, also working at the company, who became another friend. I learned a lot about the Danish way of doing things, which is very socialist, and was really impressed with how well the people were taken care of and how high their quality of life was. I saw a lot of things I preferred to the US way. Somewhere along the way, I acquired a boyfriend who had spent a good number of years studying in Germany and was studying for a Ph.D. He got the chance to teach at a university in Poland and asked if I'd be open to moving there with him. That's how I ended up living in Krakow for two years. The relationship didn't work out, but I learned even more about managing long term in a country not my own and in a foreign language. That was in 1995-6, so I also learned a lot about the detriments and the benefits (there were some) of the Communist system that had existed before. The tightness and importance of relationships, the preservation of the arts, and the fact that getting along with a lot lot less doesn't really need to hurt your quality of life much were among the things I learned to appreciate. I didn't plan to come back, but I eventually had to when my Visa ran out. The latest opportunity came with my husband, who was a social worker, a skill so much in shortage in the UK that they were recruiting in the US. He saw the ad when he was looking for a new job and asked me what I thought about him applying. I said sure. (Most European countries have lists of skills that are in short supply and have programs for accepting people, especially young people who know the local language, with those skills. The skills aren't always the ones you might expect, like doctors. For example, last year France was short of pastry chefs.) This was during the run up to the 2004 election, and we were already appalled at what was happening with Bush, so we took our chance and he got the job. It didn't work out (another long long story) but the relationship has done fine, and here we are, at least until our 5-year visas run out. We are already planning what to do to stay out if things do not seem to be improving big time in the US. Since we are Jewish, Israel may be a possibility. We both much prefer Europe to the US in terms of quality of life and opportunity, though we are not in a really big city right now and I miss that because a huge proportion of the jobs in my latest field are in very large cities and I just plain love the culture. We suspect that at times we have come upon instances of negativeness associated with out being Americans (We have encountered endless negativeness regarding Bush and his policies.), but we have never been certain in any case, and we try to give people the benefit of the doubt. Hope I didn't bore you with the long explanation. Donna
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